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Pilot's Mess [chit-chat zone]

This is the forum to get to know your fellow pilots and the ONLY place to talk about everything else not really relevant to sci-fi movies, including your personal loves and interests. A true pilot doesn't discuss these issues while on duty.

View Poll Results: What are you? (Insert joke here)
Buddhist 1 2.94%
Hindu 0 0%
(Christian) Roman Catholic 2 5.88%
(Christian) Presbyterian 0 0%
(Christian) Variation 5 14.71%
Jewish 1 2.94%
Muslim 0 0%
Athiest (Militant) 4 11.76%
Athiest (Live and let live) 12 35.29%
Other (RELIGIONS YOU HAVE NAMED AFTER YOURSELF DON'T COUNT!) 9 26.47%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jan 30, 2003, 10:57 PM   #31
floyd
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Re: Caution! Religion!

I feel pretty similarly. Nowadays I've begun to look at people with faith as suckers. If I ever hear someone of faith put down a cult, or devil worshipers or something, I lay into them. They arn't any better, with their non-sense.

Today a guy I know showed me this web site he had made, and I had expected it to be a Smashing Pumpkins fan site or something, but it ended up to be this site he made about how he hates gays. He's a Jehova's Witness. At his church, gays burn in hell. I was under the illusion this guy was a good friend, someone whom I could relate to... that illusion ended today.
I had known he was ultra-religious, but I had no idea that he was such a jack-ass. I layed it on him, every scientific argument I could call to memory, I hurled at him. I started with gays, and worked my way into religion. 45 minutes later his face was white. He hadn't said a whole heck of a lot. I ended with saying something about, oddly enough, 'horse sh!t,' as JACKER put it. I told him everything he had ever been told by his parents and the people at his church was horse sh!t, and that he was being a mindless automaton. I don't think I would have EVER done something like that if I hadn't first thought he was a respectable guy. I actually regret it now, but the shock of the situation spawned a offensive side in me I'm not sure I knew was there.
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Old Jan 30, 2003, 11:38 PM   #32
Coronis
Hehe... he said LOG...
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by floyd
I feel pretty similarly. Nowadays I've begun to look at people with faith as suckers. If I ever hear someone of faith put down a cult, or devil worshipers or something, I lay into them. They arn't any better, with their non-sense.

Today a guy I know showed me this web site he had made, and I had expected it to be a Smashing Pumpkins fan site or something, but it ended up to be this site he made about how he hates gays. He's a Jehova's Witness. At his church, gays burn in hell. I was under the illusion this guy was a good friend, someone whom I could relate to... that illusion ended today.
I had known he was ultra-religious, but I had no idea that he was such a jack-ass. I layed it on him, every scientific argument I could call to memory, I hurled at him. I started with gays, and worked my way into religion. 45 minutes later his face was white. He hadn't said a whole heck of a lot. I ended with saying something about, oddly enough, 'horse sh!t,' as JACKER put it. I told him everything he had ever been told by his parents and the people at his church was horse sh!t, and that he was being a mindless automaton. I don't think I would have EVER done something like that if I hadn't first thought he was a respectable guy. I actually regret it now, but the shock of the situation spawned a offensive side in me I'm not sure I knew was there.


We never really know it's there until the time comes to use it... I learned that the hard way...
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 07:13 AM   #33
HighWiredSith
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by JACKER
Religon is horse sh!t! Every religous person I know is angry, bitter, rude, and unhappy. No point in me explaining any further of this absolute horse sh!t.

Rather ironic, isn't it? You seem to be the one angry, bitter, rude, and unhappy. I am a religious person and am none of those things. But then again, I have enough sense not to enter into something as ineffectual as a religion/value debate and then get emotional about it.
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 07:24 AM   #34
JACKER
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith


Rather ironic, isn't it? You seem to be the one angry, bitter, rude, and unhappy. I am a religious person and am none of those things. But then again, I have enough sense not to enter into something as ineffectual as a religion/value debate and then get emotional about it.

hehehe! I wasn't REALLY emotional, but in a more negative mood? Probably. There are exceptions, although I do know many. If they believe in God, eternal bliss and what not, then why do they worry about things so much? Get angry and hate people?
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 07:46 AM   #35
Racoon
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by JACKER


hehehe! I wasn't REALLY emotional, but in a more negative mood? Probably. There are exceptions, although I do know many. If they believe in God, eternal bliss and what not, then why do they worry about things so much? Get angry and hate people?
Yeah, that's odd. But maybe it's 'cause their life in that bliss is so boring that they need to use their adrenalin in other way?

I've never liked church things etc. I hardly ever do them. Still I believe in God and pray often.
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 07:49 AM   #36
HighWiredSith
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Good question to which there is no clear answer. Men have debated since time began.

But there is a profound truth to be learned here about religion and faith. It is an emotional issue. It’s drives men mad but it can also makes men free. The truth is this: science and reason cannot answer the fundamental questions of this world and this life. Science and observation tells us that death happens every day, is more common than ingrown toenails, and is something every single human being on this planet is destined to do. Yet science cannot explain why we fear death, why it hurts so much, why it can come so unexpected when no one in their right mind would believe they could live forever. Our hearts and our minds tell us what science cannot, that there are greater forces at work in this world than the physical forces that govern it. Our hearts long for eternity. Atheism is nothing but a suppression of those longings. I’m convinced of that. Yet there are very few true atheists in this world. 98% of this world will profess, if they are honest, to a belief in something, some creative force, something that happens after death. Death is a concept we are all going to have to face up to. Most that haunt these boards are young, with many years ahead of them. I am older, but not that old. But death is coming and coming quite soon in the greater context of things. Are you prepared? Does it frighten you? Don’t answer, ask yourself and think about the true answer. What we spew here is often nonsense, far from the truth, written more for the surface impact than a deeper meaning. The real answers are always personal and never out loud and they are all that matter. Does the idea that everything ends at death, that everyone you have ever loved will, when they die, be obliterated and gone forever comfort you, make your life better? I would suggest that it does not, but I only speculate, I do not presume. These are the questions that drive religion. The elitists will claim religion is the result of ignorance. I claim such thinking worse than ignorance. It’s an intentional denial of a fundamental truth in this world, that men are driven and motivated by their belief in what lies beyond this life. The atheist and agnostic are driven in their denial of the existence of these things and they pursue it with as much zeal and force as the Muslim who works toward paradise, though the means may differ. In other words, if the athiest doesn't give a **** about religion, they why ask the questions, why enter the debate…why get emotional?
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 08:18 AM   #37
Jove
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
The atheist and agnostic are driven in their denial of the existence of these things and they pursue it with as much zeal and force as the Muslim who works toward paradise, though the means may differ...

Excuse me?
Agnostic = denial?
I don't think so.
An agnostic merely thinks it's impossible (currently) to know the truth in matters such as God and the after-life that the other religions are so preoccupied with. It is not a denial of the existence of God it is merely a belief that there is no way we can tell.
Admittedly there are some areas Atheists and Agnostics are similar but that depends on how improbable the existence of God is. If they think it so improbable as to be not worthy of consideration then they are very close to Atheism - but there is always a very slight difference even in that extreme case.
If anything it is the closest you can get to an actual non-belief in religion; you don't believe in the existence of a God/almighty power, yet you don't believe in the non-existence of that God.
So please don't group Agnostics in with Atheists - Atheists have a belief that God does not exist.
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 08:40 AM   #38
Ivan
formerly known as Ivanhoe
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
If you look up 'atheism' in the dictionary, you will probably find it defined as the belief that there is no God. Certainly many people understand atheism in this way. Yet many atheists do not, and this is not what the term means if one considers it from the point of view of its Greek roots. In Greek 'a' means 'without' or 'not' and 'theos' means 'god.' From this standpoint an atheist would simply be someone without a belief in God, not necessarily someone who believes that God does not exist. According to its Greek roots, then, atheism is a negative veiew, characterized by the absence of belief in God.


[Michael Martin, "Atheism: A Philosophical Justification", p. 463.
Temple University Press, 1990.]

I consider myself to be an atheist but. I am not denying that a god-like entity may exist . It is consistent with logic that there is a “creator” . I am denying that THAT GOD is anything like it is described in any major human religion (Christianity, Islam, Hindu, Buddhist etc..)

I am denying that concepts like Sin, morality exist anywhere outside individual consciousness. It is not universal and it is subjective. I deny that there is something Called FREE WILL. To think otherwise is not Logical and borders with anarchism.

God doesn’t play dice. Universe is a prefabricated simulation.

Last edited by Ivan : Jan 31, 2003 at 09:27 AM.
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 08:45 AM   #39
HighWiredSith
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by Ivanhoe
I consider myself to be an atheist but. I am not denying that a god-like entity may exist . It is consistent with logic that there is a “creator” .

Then, technically, you are not an athiest but, as Jove pointed out, an agnositc.

I tend to lump agnostics and athiests together when, perhaps, I shouldn't.

Last edited by HighWiredSith : Jan 31, 2003 at 09:06 AM.
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 08:58 AM   #40
Jove
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Re: Caution! Religion!

If you believe in God, any God, even your own idea of a God, then you can not be Atheist, whether Atheism means a believe that God does not exist or whether you are just "without God" (i.e. someone who is not religious in any way).

So, Ivanhoe, I do not think you can call yourself an Atheist if you actually believe in a God. I have no idea what you call someone who believes in a God (of some description or other). Possibly just a "Theist" (as opposed to "Atheist").


I refer you to an article (Q & A) with Bertrand Russell:
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/humftp/E...l/agnostic.htm
This is him explaining his understanding of Agnosticism.
It may be of some help.

Last edited by Jove : Jan 31, 2003 at 09:28 AM.
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 09:28 AM   #41
Ivan
formerly known as Ivanhoe
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Did you read my quote?? We obviously don't share the definition of atheism.

From this standpoint an atheist would simply be someone without a belief in God, not necessarily someone who believes that God does not exist. According to its Greek roots, then, atheism is a negative veiew, characterized by the absence of belief in God.


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Old Jan 31, 2003, 09:31 AM   #42
Ivan
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Re: Caution! Religion!

I don't belive that the "god-like" entity or entities are as described in any human religion.

Last edited by Ivan : Jan 31, 2003 at 09:36 AM.
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 09:36 AM   #43
Ivan
formerly known as Ivanhoe
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Re: Caution! Religion!

GOD is a HUMAN TERM. There is a constant number of Religions and their definition of God.

The thing is I don't belive any of them. But I am not an agnostic either.

An agnostic thinks that we as humans can't grasp the existence of god or anything beyond material life. I think that by learning the laws of our universe we would be able to do just that.

So what am I??
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 09:55 AM   #44
Jove
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by Ivanhoe
GOD is a HUMAN TERM. There is a constant number of Religions and their definition of God.

The thing is I don't belive any of them. But I am not an agnostic either.

An agnostic thinks that we as humans can't grasp the existence of god or anything beyond material life. I think that by learning the laws of our universe we would be able to do just that.

So what am I??


An agnostic thinks no such thing. An Agnostic merely believes that you can not (currently) prove the existence or non-existence of God. Some Agnostics think it highly probable and some think it highly unprobable that a god, any god, exists. The fact is they believe you can not PROVE it and are unwilling to believe in either extreme.

For example - I think that it is quite probable that a God / Creator exists. I can't prove it and am unwilling to side with either until it is proven one way or another. I consider myself Agnostic. I'm actually also fairly apathetic about the whole idea as well. I just find this discussion quite interesting.

I would call you a "Theist".
I've actually just looked it up at www.dictionary.com

the·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (thzm)
n.
Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

Does this answer your question?
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 10:02 AM   #45
Ivan
formerly known as Ivanhoe
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by Jove



An agnostic thinks no such thing. An Agnostic merely believes that you can not (currently) prove the existence or non-existence of God. Some Agnostics think it highly probable and some think it highly unprobable that a god, any god, exists. The fact is they believe you can not PROVE it and are unwilling to believe in either extreme.

For example - I think that it is quite probable that a God / Creator exists. I can't prove it and am unwilling to side with either until it is proven one way or another. I consider myself Agnostic. I'm actually also fairly apathetic about the whole idea as well. I just find this discussion quite interesting.

I would call you a "Theist".
I've actually just looked it up at www.dictionary.com

the·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (thzm)
n.
Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

Does this answer your question?

You don't understand I only use the God-like term in the lack of a better word. What I belive is not indentifiable with the term god. The only thing that my vision of this has to do with God ( the term created by humans in various religions) is that it represents the entity or even a LAW responsible for creation of our universe. What do you say now?



I said it before and i say it again. HUMAN communication is imposible.
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