Go Back   Home > SciFlicks SQUAD! Forums > Sci-Fi Nation > Pilot's Mess [chit-chat zone]

Welcome to the SciFlicks SQUAD! Forums.

You are currently viewing our community boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free and open-minded sci-fi community you will be able to start and reply to forum discussions, write movie reviews, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or with your account please contact support here.

Pilot's Mess [chit-chat zone]

This is the forum to get to know your fellow pilots and the ONLY place to talk about everything else not really relevant to sci-fi movies, including your personal loves and interests. A true pilot doesn't discuss these issues while on duty.

View Poll Results: What are you? (Insert joke here)
Buddhist 1 2.94%
Hindu 0 0%
(Christian) Roman Catholic 2 5.88%
(Christian) Presbyterian 0 0%
(Christian) Variation 5 14.71%
Jewish 1 2.94%
Muslim 0 0%
Athiest (Militant) 4 11.76%
Athiest (Live and let live) 12 35.29%
Other (RELIGIONS YOU HAVE NAMED AFTER YOURSELF DON'T COUNT!) 9 26.47%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Feb 5, 2003, 02:52 PM   #61
jill_valentine
Us kids know.
jill_valentine's Avatar
1,805 flights since Dec 2002
Location: Six Feet Under.
Re: Caution! Religion!

I'm so stoopid. I soo knew this was gonna happen. Sith, youre right, I took it personally. It was foolish of me. I stand my beliefs, but I shouldn't have reacted so emotionally. While I maintain that there was animosity in your post, I apologise for my own ...ferocity, I suppose. I was just a little frustrated. I encountered yet another doomsayer in Yahoo! and I was a little agitated. Anyhow, I'm a stupid fool who ignored my own guidance. Sorry.
jill_valentine is offline Reply With Quote
Old Feb 6, 2003, 05:32 AM   #62
ThinWLady
Mrs. Tony Harrison
ThinWLady's Avatar
1,295 flights since Feb 2002
Location: Swinging Organ
Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
What on earth would give you the idea that I am a pessimist? On the contrary, I find great hope in the scientific truths of this world. Our world is dying, we are dying, yet it fills me with hope and wonder and greatly affirms what I believe.

Ah, but your earlier post can give a picture that you are in the middle of a great depression etc. It depends how one reads it.
ThinWLady is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2003, 12:12 AM   #63
pinky
Recruit Pilot
pinky's Avatar
7 flights since May 2003
Location: CA
Re: Caution! Religion!

Religion is spawned from ignorance.
Think about it. The ancient Greeks (or another ancient civilization) did not understand many things around them. How did rain work? What made the ocean change tides? What the f*uck is that big bright thing in the sky and where did it come from? Well, they answered these questions the easiest way out. "Oh, it's just a power out of our control...."
Before this was athiesm, or maybe even not that because there wasn't even a "god" not to believe in. The cavemen did not think about the things around them that much, so a solid belief system was never established. As people became more advanced, we started thinking about these things (along come famous Greek philosophers). But the technology wasn'y available for them to figure out exactly what the f*ck was going on, so they came up with the idead of "gods". Religion started off as a simple means of explaining things.
More and more belief systems were developed. Who was right? Everyone believed that only themselves were right. Does that make sense? No of course not, because SOMEONE has to be wrong. Well, what do you believe in then? Whatever you want to? Whatever your parents believe in?
Well later on religion was corrupted. Badly. And in fact it still is today.

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
The truth is this: science and reason cannot answer the fundamental questions of this world and this life.[/i]

And to this I ask: So do we go and make up some reason for things that science cannot prove? At least science proves things, whereas the beliefs involved in religion can't even be proven themsleves.

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
Our hearts and our minds tell us what science cannot, that there are greater forces at work in this world than the physical forces that govern it. Our hearts long for eternity. Atheism is nothing but a suppression of those longings. Iím convinced of that. [/i]

So if you really want something, then you come up with a way to give it to yourself even if it has not been proven? Atheism may be a "suppression of those longings", but its based not on beliefs that have not been proven.
I would like to once more remind you the meriad of belief systems out there that contrast with one another so greatly. Why, though? Because people made them up; there's no denying that. People DID make them up, and continue to add or change things they feel necessary to make it seem fit for themselves. Who, then, is right? Anyone? There is no proof....

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
In other words, if the athiest doesn't give a **** about religion, they why ask the questions, why enter the debateÖwhy get emotional?

Well, I'm an atheist, and I certainly care, therfore nullifying this point. I enter the debate because I love debating and I also have a paticular disgust for all religion .
Also, does anyone see the hypocrisy involved with religion? The f*cking 90 year old pope drives around in hid multi-million dollar car and his rich ass palace, and he preaches a religion based on Jeses Christ, one of the poorest and most humble men that ever lived? Oh, wait I forgot, Jesus died so we wouldn't have to suffer. WHAT THE F*CK IS THAT STINK CRCK OF SH*T. I know, a lame excuse to live the life while sucking the commoner dry of their money like leeches so the church can own even more land and become even richer. What would Jesus think if he saw a late night sermon of some crackpot religious scandal that asks for money every five seconds with an elaborate set of gold plated items and grand pianos and expensive jewelry? He'd be pretty pissed that he created that. Watch some South Park episodes; you'll further see my point.

Well, I'm tired of ranting. Please critize me. Especially HighWiredSith because I quoted him so much . Well, thanks for reading my biased view of religion (if you were even able to make it this far.... )

P.S.
Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Bob
an intresting quote on releigon

"If God did not exist then it would necessary to invent him

Darth Bob, did this come from Deus Ex? I think it did, but I'm not posotive....
pinky is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2003, 12:57 AM   #64
SF_not_Sci-Fi
Hellblazer
SF_not_Sci-Fi's Avatar
2,877 flights since Nov 2001
Re: Caution! Religion!

That last quote is Voltaire.

Here's an interesting commentary:

There is a class of people who, if they do not believe, must at least make a semblance of believing. This class, comprising all the tormentors, all the oppressors, and all the exploiters of humanity; priests, monarchs, statesmen, soldiers, public and private financiers, officials of all sorts, policemen, gendarmes, jailers and executioners, monopolists, capitalists, tax-leeches, contractors and landlords, lawyers, economists, politicians of all shades, down to the smallest vendor of sweetmeats, all will repeat in unison those words of Voltaire:

'If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.' For, you understand, 'the people must have a religion.' That is the safety valve.

There exists, finally, a somewhat numerous class of honest but timid souls who, too intelligent to take the Christian dogmas seriously, reject them in detail, but have neither the courage nor the strength nor the necessary resolution to summarily renounce them altogether. They abandon to your criticism all the special absurdities of religion, they turn up their noses at all the miracles, but they cling desperately to the principal absurdity; the source of all the others, to the miracle that explains and justifies all the other miracles, the existence of God. Their God is not the vigorous and powerful being, the brutally positive God of theology. It is a nebulous, diaphanous, illusory being that vanishes into nothing at the first attempt to grasp it; it is a mirage, an ignis fatuus that neither warms nor illuminates. And yet they hold fast to it, and believe that, were it to disappear, all would disappear with it.


God and the State by M. Bakunin: (pp. 17-18)

Last edited by SF_not_Sci-Fi : May 20, 2003 at 01:03 AM.
SF_not_Sci-Fi is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2003, 01:27 AM   #65
pinky
Recruit Pilot
pinky's Avatar
7 flights since May 2003
Location: CA
Re: Caution! Religion!

Nice commentary! I should read more Bakunin.... Oh, and the quote was from Deus Ex as well. They used it in the game .
pinky is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2003, 03:33 AM   #66
SF_not_Sci-Fi
Hellblazer
SF_not_Sci-Fi's Avatar
2,877 flights since Nov 2001
Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
The cavemen did not think about the things around them that much, so a solid belief system was never established. As people became more advanced, we started thinking about these things (along come famous Greek philosophers). But the technology wasn'y available for them to figure out exactly what the f*ck was going on, so they came up with the idead of "gods". Religion started off as a simple means of explaining things.
More and more belief systems were developed. Who was right? Everyone believed that only themselves were right. Does that make sense? No of course not, because SOMEONE has to be wrong. Well, what do you believe in then? Whatever you want to? Whatever your parents believe in?
Well later on religion was corrupted. Badly. And in fact it still is today.
The caveman was no athiest. ore of an animist for the most part really. There is evidence of burial ceromonies as far back as there is evidence of human beings. Indeed, mysticism is an outmoded way of explaining things, just as empirical science has become outmoded by quantum physics as an absolute way of explaining the greater workings of the universe. Science is far better at explaining the world around us than relegion is, but it is finally inadaquate.

But we should not run from the currant inadaquate system to the antiquated and even more inadaquate one. The Newtonian and even Einsteinian models of the universe may not be perfect, but they sure beat the babylonian and aristotillian in describing the workings of our world.

Also: violant dogmatism has nothing to do with the search for knoledge and everything to do with the lust for power.
SF_not_Sci-Fi is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2003, 08:46 AM   #67
HighWiredSith
More Than Just Okay
HighWiredSith's Avatar
3,854 flights since Jul 2001
Location: The Uplift Mojo Party
Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by SF_not_Sci-Fi
But we should not run from the currant inadaquate system to the antiquated and even more inadaquate one. The Newtonian and even Einsteinian models of the universe may not be perfect, but they sure beat the babylonian and aristotillian in describing the workings of our world.

Really? Why so? Why are Stephen Hawking's or Albert Einstein's ideas about the origin of the universe any more valid than Newton's, or Nebuchednezzer's? Why is it more valid? The modern, so-called enlightened man bases his (or her) ideas on assumption made by others, which makes what they think assumptions in themselves and then they present those assumptions to us in the clothing of a lot of technobabble and shiny new books and we soak it up and believe it and think it's valid and not once, not ever, do we ourselves bother to find out on our own? I would further suggest that few today, in our enlightened state, are capable of truly original thinking. We marvel at our inventions and technology yet all of it, every single ounce, is based and built on the inventions and technology of others who they themselves based their own work on someone elses and on and on and on.

We assume so much and take so much as truth. I'm not into conspiracy theories or anything, but I'm truly amazed how little we question what others present to us as truth.
HighWiredSith is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2003, 09:01 AM   #68
SF_not_Sci-Fi
Hellblazer
SF_not_Sci-Fi's Avatar
2,877 flights since Nov 2001
Re: Caution! Religion!

And how is your 2000 plus year-old dusty (as opposed to shiny) book of mumbo-jumbo (as opposed to techno-babble) any different according to this assesment? I'll tell you one thing that Hawking has going for him: he doesn't claim any 'devine' knolege or any sort of absolute infallibility.
SF_not_Sci-Fi is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2003, 09:33 AM   #69
Jove
Sector Marshall
Jove's Avatar
743 flights since Nov 2002
Location: In front of my computer.
Re: Caution! Religion!

Theory.
It all boils down to theory.
One generation's "theory" is a prior generation's "inconceivable" and a latter generation's "fact" (either for or against the theory).

For example, the world was once thought of as flat (and still held to be so by some people in the Flat Earth Society!).
Earlier generations had no real comprehension of a world, and so could not describe it as flat or as anything else. To them there was just the here and now.
Later generations have managed to disprove the theory of the flat earth - and turned the theory in to a fact (that the world is NOT flat).

What Einstein and Hawking are doing is theorising. They are going beyond what is either current theory and expanding upon it, or are generating new theory from current fact.
This is no different to what people in earlier generations have done. It is no different to what Copernicus, Gallileo, Newton et al were doing.


Now Religion is one area where people just are not able to ever reach the point of turning Theory into Fact. If they could then it is no longer a Religion. A religion relies on faith in the unprovable - not the impossible but the unprovable.
Religion is a theory that can never be tested empirically and the absence of a "God" does not negate the possibility of a "God".
Religion is what you use to fill in the gaps that science has not yet answered. The more we probe the mysteries of the universe with science, the more answers we obtain, the harder it will be to justify the existence of a God.
But ultimately there will always be questions that can not be answered by science, such as "What was there before Time?" and "Who created the Universe?" or if that can be answered (there are theories already for this) then it will be "Who created the thing that created our Universe?"
Religion could be viewed as being for those that are scared of the unanswerable. It could be viewed as a crutch so that we don't have to accept such things as death (the afterlife is easier to accept than the person merely turning into worm-food).

But as soon as aspects of Religion become fact they lose their power and become just scientific realities. What is the power in believing in something if it is considered just a normal thing?
Jove is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2003, 03:35 PM   #70
pinky
Recruit Pilot
pinky's Avatar
7 flights since May 2003
Location: CA
Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by SF_not_Sci-Fi
The caveman was no athiest. ore of an animist for the most part really. There is evidence of burial ceromonies as far back as there is evidence of human beings. Indeed, mysticism is an outmoded way of explaining things, just as empirical science has become outmoded by quantum physics as an absolute way of explaining the greater workings of the universe. Science is far better at explaining the world around us than relegion is, but it is finally inadaquate.

Indeed maybe burial cerimonies were performed, but does this suggest that people believed in a god or gods? No, it doesn't even suggest that they believed in life after death. You can still respect someone's dead body for who they were in life and not believe or even think about something beyond.
Also, science may be inadaquate, but look at how things were 2000+ years ago. Science was crap then as compared to now. Even today maybe in the last decade we've obtained an amazing amount of knowledge (much of it disproving many religious people's beliefs). On a day to day scale, it may not seem like we are learning much, but over time we will find answers (unless we blow ourselves up with nuclear bombs ). People, as pointed out by Jove, used to think the world was flat. We now look at this theory as ridiculous because we know it isn't. Why shouldn't we be able to continue to search for answers? We will. We will know things that we could not even possibly dream of knowing know in, say, 1000 years. My theory is that, eventually, religion will be disproved and it will become invalid, but there will always be people out there who are determined to believe in religion and reject the facts of common sense.
pinky is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2003, 04:07 PM   #71
SF_not_Sci-Fi
Hellblazer
SF_not_Sci-Fi's Avatar
2,877 flights since Nov 2001
Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by pinky


Indeed maybe burial cerimonies were performed, but does this suggest that people believed in a god or gods? No, it doesn't even suggest that they believed in life after death. You can still respect someone's dead body for who they were in life and not believe or even think about something beyond.
The nature of these ceromonies would suggest something entirely differant. Also consider the animism found in many socioties at this level of technology. It is not as if the human race developed uniformly. Such socioties have been observed and recorded. In fact, some still exist.

"Bronze Age" peoples did NOT invent mysticism.
SF_not_Sci-Fi is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 20, 2003, 07:07 PM   #72
Bayleaf48
Hero Of Time
Bayleaf48's Avatar
1,316 flights since Jun 2001
Location: Barnstaple, North Devon, England
Smile Re: Caution! Religion!

I'd have to say other as I;m not at all religious, don't believe in God, Heaven or Hell

I infact belive in Gypsy Magic, so that's my sort of religion!
Bayleaf48 is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 21, 2003, 03:01 AM   #73
SF_not_Sci-Fi
Hellblazer
SF_not_Sci-Fi's Avatar
2,877 flights since Nov 2001
Re: Caution! Religion!

I'll tell you one thing: unicorns are far more likely then god.
SF_not_Sci-Fi is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 21, 2003, 02:15 PM   #74
HighWiredSith
More Than Just Okay
HighWiredSith's Avatar
3,854 flights since Jul 2001
Location: The Uplift Mojo Party
Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by pinky


Indeed maybe burial cerimonies were performed, but does this suggest that people believed in a god or gods? No, it doesn't even suggest that they believed in life after death. You can still respect someone's dead body for who they were in life and not believe or even think about something beyond.
Also, science may be inadaquate, but look at how things were 2000+ years ago. Science was crap then as compared to now. Even today maybe in the last decade we've obtained an amazing amount of knowledge (much of it disproving many religious people's beliefs). On a day to day scale, it may not seem like we are learning much, but over time we will find answers (unless we blow ourselves up with nuclear bombs ). People, as pointed out by Jove, used to think the world was flat. We now look at this theory as ridiculous because we know it isn't. Why shouldn't we be able to continue to search for answers? We will. We will know things that we could not even possibly dream of knowing know in, say, 1000 years. My theory is that, eventually, religion will be disproved and it will become invalid, but there will always be people out there who are determined to believe in religion and reject the facts of common sense.

Here's a fact. Man, on whole, was more intelligent 2000 years ago than we are now. You confuse knowledge, which is a progressive concept built on things we learn from others who learned those things from others and so on and on, with wisdom, the ability to learn and aquire understanding on our own. Our great scientific achievements are a house of cards, an illusion that has a few uses but an illusion that you entrust as much faith and hope in as a religious person does in their god, and the irony, your god is no more proveable than theirs. You trust what others tell you and put your faith in science, in medicine, in social ideals and yet you will, in the end, die just like your counterpart from 2000 years ago and your body will rot in the ground (or be burned) and will be nothing, basic elements sitting inert. Are you content with that? Where will your science and technology have gotten you then? We are all doomed, it's only a matter of time. Call me pessimistic, but you have to hide your head in the sand to deny it.

We are just as brutal, just as backward, and just as primitive as we were 2000 years ago yet I would argue that we are less intelligent and have far less useful knowledge. You take the average human being, take away grocery stores, automobiles, medicine, purified water, and he or she will be dead inside a month. Our lives are built on the achievements of others and we achieve nothing ourselves, we only feed of it like parasites. The great irony is that most will never see it.

And how do you know the world is not flat? I'm not saying it is, but I am implying that you base your understanding on what you have been told or shown by others. If you've taken a plan and flown yourself completely around the globe then indeed, you know. But unless you have, you are putting faith in what others have told or shown you, simple as that.
HighWiredSith is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 21, 2003, 02:59 PM   #75
SF_not_Sci-Fi
Hellblazer
SF_not_Sci-Fi's Avatar
2,877 flights since Nov 2001
Re: Caution! Religion!

We have adjusted to our environment. it is what we do
We have altered our environment. This is also what we do. An aincient would also not have able to survive in today's world either. Does this make him inferior? No, only out of place.

As for you relegion: it doesn't work. Medicine does. Its just that simple. Science, when applied to the real world resonates. Relegion only betreys itself as so much nonsense. smash two pieces of uranium together and BOOM! pray and santa claus does not so much as fart.
SF_not_Sci-Fi is offline Reply With Quote
Reply

← Previous Thread | Next Thread → Home > SciFlicks SQUAD! Forums > Sci-Fi Nation > Pilot's Mess [chit-chat zone]

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Religion and idiots
I had a convorsation today with this little Southern Babtist christian kid in school. And he informed me that Jews, Muslims, Hindu's, Mormons, And...
115
replies
Quotes, I have so far.
I really haven't dome much... And a this is mostly for my own use as a religious pondering person. I really enjoy the debate of ethics. This is what...
18
replies
Religion, what are you?
I am a cat
20
replies
Religion,
I think it's important that we all Know what Religion other pilot's follow. This is a mult-faith site and we all have predjudices against certain...
11
replies
Religion of Peace?
What do you guys think about Islam? Is it a religion of peace. Can it be when it's basic tenent require it's followers to dismember and destroy...
25
replies
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
 

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35 PM.
SciFlicks cannot be held liable for the opinions expressed in these public forums.
SciFlicks Copyright © 1998-2011, Popcorn Studios.
vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.