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Pilot's Mess [chit-chat zone]

This is the forum to get to know your fellow pilots and the ONLY place to talk about everything else not really relevant to sci-fi movies, including your personal loves and interests. A true pilot doesn't discuss these issues while on duty.

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Old Mar 14, 2003, 11:17 AM   #1
HighWiredSith
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Religion of Peace?

What do you guys think about Islam? Is it a religion of peace. Can it be when it's basic tenent require it's followers to dismember and destroy those who are not muslim. Or is this bullsh*t thinking? Here a couple of pics I pulled off the internet of Shiite Muslims's in Lebanon celebrating the death of some Islamic prophet amidst chants of Death to the West, Death to America, Death to the Jews.


Caption: A Shiite Muslim man holds his son as another man in the left slashes his head with a razor during the annual ritual to mark Ashoura Day in the southern Lebanese town of Nabatiyeh, on Thursday, March 13, 2003.


Caption: A Lebanese Shi'ite Muslim mother helps her son beat himself with a sword during a ceremony of Ashoura held in Nabatiyeh, March 13, 2003. Shiites in Lebanon commemorate the killing of Imam Hussein, grandson of the Prophet Mohammed, by his rival over 1,400 years ago.


Religion of peace my ass.
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Old Mar 14, 2003, 12:29 PM   #2
Iwata
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Re: Religion of Peace?

Here is my two censt, as obvious, history-related. Sorry guys, but it's quite inevitable in this topic.

The muslims were, a LONG time ago, the most advanced bunch of people in the world.

That was all evident, and changed, during the Crusades.

When the crusaders attack, the muslims showed a kind of pity the crusaders had no problems denying. The crusaders massacred, whilst the muslims offered a choice: Become one of us, or die. The only ones they killed without mercy were the members of the religious knightly orders.

As the war, and the crusades (there were 9 in all, plus 2 unofficial ones) grew in volume, both sides suffered a change of mentality. The crusaders saw that pity, and respect towards the enemy, were a kind of humility they required to learn. So they adapted.
The muslims saw that the crusaders, in their barbaric way of waging warfare, also offered lessons to be learnt. Butthey refused to learn them.

THIS was the key point in history. The european states, inspired by the muslims, saw it best to investigate and research the sciences of the world. So they learned, and evolved.

The muslims, shocked by the brutality of the "Franj" (their name for westerners) closed themselves towards the outside. And remained pretty much unchanged in mentality. Up to today.

Even today, much of what is going on is from 2 VERY important factors:

1- The Crusades never ended for the Muslims. Bin Laden refered to westerners as "Crusaders" on several occasions. The guy that tried to kill John Paul II called him "the leader of the Crusades".
Why is this important? Becasue in their mentality, any act of violence directed at westerners is an act of revenge and self-defense from cultural invasion.

2- Israel is, let's not deny this, seen by most muslims as the last of the Crusader States. For those who don't know, after the 1st Crusade, a few so-called "Crusader States" were founded in occupied regions in the middle east, each with his own king and army, and, theoretically, as vassals to either the Pope, or Constantinopla, the kingdom that started the Crusades.
The last of those states fell in 1291, with the Crusaders evacuating St. John of Acre, the last Crusader fortress.
And now, in the exact same spot, in the XXth century, a new western nation grows (and rightly so, in my opinion) in place of the old Crusader States.

As you see, there's some coincidence here...

Also, the first muslim suicide squads, from the Assassin Cult, also grew during the Crusades, though they joined the Crusaders. Their most infamous act was the assassination of a muslim general as he lft mass, in the front of thousands of people. The Assassin was cut to pieces by angry mob, but his job was done... see some resemblance with, say Israel..?

Religion of peace? Perhaps once that was true. But they failed to learn, and chose to remain exactly as they were 1000 years ago, the same barbaric notions of retribution and revenge as before.

We grew past that. It's a war between muslims and the west, but only one of those is actually fighting... the other side is too happy turning the other cheek...
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Old Mar 14, 2003, 08:01 PM   #3
SF_not_Sci-Fi
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Re: Religion of Peace?

There is no 'relegion of peace'. Relegion is all about power, it is a tool of oppression and the stupification of the masses. A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished.

As for the Koran war-and-mayem bits...

How many Jews and Christians do you know who would actually murder homosexuals and 'unchaste' women for their skydaddies? Yes, there are some idiots who take their violant and innapropriate bedtime a little stories too seriously, but don't judge them with the same sword as those who merely pass them on to their kids.

Relegion is not just the bare basic dogma as interpreted by you, it is the actual practice. So now you'll mention suicide bombers. Ok, then by the same logic I could say that the murderous fools who kill and maim doctors and blow up abortion clinics prove that christianity is evil. I'd say we're both right.

I'd put up some pictures of Christian excesses, but there just isn't a world-wide propaganda machine trying to demonize that paricular sham. Sorry.
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Old Mar 14, 2003, 08:42 PM   #4
jill_valentine
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Re: Religion of Peace?

Long, Long ago, in a devoutly Christian country, there were priests and nuns. These saintly men and women were called "Orders of Mercy". These orders were given special power by the state, that allowed them to take in men and women that had lost their way on the path of righteousness. Women who had sex out of wedlock. Illegitimate children. Even young girls who "might" stray. Girls were sent away if they were pretty. These men and women, and children as young as 4 were cared for by these orders of mercy, and returned to the streets, better people.
To be legally entitled to leave, one had to be "bailed" or signed out by a male relative. Frequently, nobody would. They were left in these institutions and forgotten, because they had caused shame on the family.

These men women and children were turned over, like prisoners, by the state, or by their own family. They were turned over, and forced to work. The work was a way of stripping them of humility, and turning them back to God. From 6 in the morning, to 10 at night, these people cleaned sh1t covered sheets that belonged to priests, or came from hospitals. They recieved no pay. Never. For sixteen hours a day, these people were forbidden to comunicate in any way. After work, they were made to pray for forgiveness for whatever sins they might have had. Long hair represented vanity, and was shorn off with blunt scissors. Communication resulted in a beating with a piece of wood, or starvation. Anyone who lescaped was-and this is the best part-hunted down by the police force with the aid of dogs and returned forcibly.

The most famous case was the Magdalene laundries. These women were incarcerated by a charitable Christian organisation, based on the tenets of forgiveness and redemption. Many died there. Exactly how many-we don't know. There are at least ten cases of outright murder in these institutions, for which nobody was ever charged. People were worked, or beaten to death, and buried in bogs all over Ireland. People were blinded with scissors for displaying vanity. Illegitmate children were seized and sent to childless families who had paid the Church sizeable sums. If they were lucky. Most were put to work. Rape, or even more terrible forms of abuse, were never reported. The perpetrators were, after all, "Men of God."

We will never know how many people lived and died in these institutions. For offences against religion, These women were imprisoned and murdered. Their children were social pariahs, regarded by the locals as Sinners themselves.

The last of these institutions closed in the late 1970's.

I use this example to demonstrate that religion reflects its society. The same religion that gave the world Mother Theresa produced monsters that systematically abused their power and those in their care. The same religion tells us to always turn the other cheek, while demanding an Eye for an Eye.

Religion is always interpreted for the means of its believers. Sadists and Paedophiles used it to inflict untold misery, just as violent maniacs use it to justify wars.

Islam places the responsiblity upon the shoulders of its followers to interpret the Koran individually. The Taliban regime is not a cruel Islamic sect. Its a cruel sect that happens to be Muslim.

It was not an awfully long time ago that Christians burned their unchaste and their gays.
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Old Mar 14, 2003, 09:56 PM   #5
SF_not_Sci-Fi
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Re: Religion of Peace?

Sith probebly thinks that Papists are the Devil too
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Old Mar 14, 2003, 10:11 PM   #6
xXx
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Re: Religion of Peace?

Religion is the biggest scam ever created. The only denominations that priests care about are the $10's and $20's they get in their collection plates.
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Old Mar 15, 2003, 12:02 AM   #7
JACKER
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Re: Religion of Peace?

New people are bitter in strange days and different people eat cows and new people love cats and maybe one day you won't be so special anymore.

Quote:
Jacker, you're a bright guy

LOL!
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Old Mar 15, 2003, 01:27 AM   #8
Phlub
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Re: Religion of Peace?

Seems like we have many Aetheists here.
And I respect that.

I myself am a practicing Catholic. I find religion comforting and also I find that we are lost without faith. I find more truth to the religous creation story then in some of the scientific stories I have heard. I really do believe that there is one almighty, a being more powerful then us, one who watches us and one who shuns all to hell who don't accept Christ as their savior.

But that is my beliefs, and you all have your beliefs, and I most certainly respect those, this country was founded upon those values.
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Old Mar 15, 2003, 07:43 AM   #9
jill_valentine
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Re: Religion of Peace?

Oh it gets better. Many of the women who worked in the laundry are still alive, and have yet to come to terms with what happened. They have started to come forward with some of the most horrific tales of abuse and neglect. One woman, after being beaten unconscious for trying to track down her child, saw her father for the first time in four years. All he had to do was sign a form and she was free.

"Your not coming home. You brought shame on our family. I won't have you out here. You're sick in the head."

The girl was twenty. Just to remind you, her crime was to be unmarried and pregnant. That was about thirty years ago.

But wait! There's more! The Pope has gotten wind of an award winning documentry about the laundries. He has issued the nearest thing to a papal Fatwa I have ever seen. The film maker protested that everything he reported was true. No matter, says the Vatican.

Some of the women were on TV the other day. They have facial tics and stutters. They cry. They will never have a normal relationship because they are frightened of other people.
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Old Mar 15, 2003, 07:54 AM   #10
Iwata
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Re: Religion of Peace?

There is good and bad in all religions. It's just that some are worse than others. I've given up catholicism, but there is now way in hell you'll hear me say it's a medieval religion, with medieval values as policy.

We go to the muslim countries, however...
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Old Mar 15, 2003, 09:11 AM   #11
SF_not_Sci-Fi
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Re: Religion of Peace?

So let me get this streight: Sith says that his **** don't stink, and Iwata says that if he drudges around in the sewer for a bit he'll surely find some thats a good deal more maloderous than his own


Quote:
this country was founded upon those values.
Phlub: This country was also founded on slavery. If anything, the cluase 'this country was founded upon' does much more to discredit any given set of values then it does to bolster it.
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Old Mar 15, 2003, 10:16 AM   #12
jill_valentine
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Re: Religion of Peace?

You don't think its Medieval to excommunicate Divorcees?
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Old Mar 15, 2003, 12:07 PM   #13
Iwata
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Re: Religion of Peace?

I think it's medieval to stone someone who was rapped.
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Old Mar 15, 2003, 06:17 PM   #14
The one......
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Re: Religion of Peace?

Valentine: saw the documentary bout the infamous laundry place and it was indeed a heartbreaker and sordid shame to believe that the Catholic/ Irish community (of which I have stems) was involved. I have heard many a story about the nuns and their perverted ways and violence, is really is hard to grasp.

Iwata: Catholicism is still very medevil, although, compared to Islam it does seem to accept other religions on the surface at least.
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Old Mar 15, 2003, 07:37 PM   #15
Iwata
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Re: Religion of Peace?

Women being prejudiced in our society is the exception, not the rule, and women can cry out when abused.

In islam, women (and not only) being prejudiced is the norm, and those who cry out face punishment.

Catholicism, with all it's defects, is at least making attempts to adapt. And you don't see catholic priests calling out for the death of muslims. But you DO see muslim priests calling for the death of westerners. Those who live in London know exactly what I'm talking about...
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