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Pilot's Mess [chit-chat zone]

This is the forum to get to know your fellow pilots and the ONLY place to talk about everything else not really relevant to sci-fi movies, including your personal loves and interests. A true pilot doesn't discuss these issues while on duty.

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Old Sep 30, 2004, 11:04 PM   #1
Iwata
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Presidential Debate

Well, it's closing on 4am here, and I've just finished watching the debate.

As you may or may not know, the central issue was foreign policy and homeland security.

First off, the candidates.

Kerry was calm, logical, reflective and always stood by his views. He was more agressive than Bush, but then again, Bush is the President, and this was pretty much him accounting for the past 4 years.

Kerry thankfully avoided too many Vietnam references (I think I counted 3), and explained his position well. He seemed a bit too optimistic, and although his plans seem to indicate a safer America and a new approach to the international community, I was left wondering how he's going to find the resources to do it. All this considered, I think Kerry seemed overlly positive about a future under his presidency, but considering Bush's speech, I think Kerry got the message of a little better.

Bush seemed a bit jittery at first, but he pulled it off nicelly. He was repetitive at points, especially regarding Kerry's "Flip-Flops", and he must've said "You cannot lead by sending mixed messages" a thousand times. Bush was very supportive of his own actions in the past years, and fought with tool and nail to defend them. However, Bush strategically avoided major questions posed at times by attempting a vocal misdirection, usually with the "mixed messages" comments.

In the end, Bush was the opposite of Kerry regarding expectations for the future.

Whereas Kerry seemed at times unrealistically positive, Bush also appeared at times to be resigned to what's going on in the world, and he avoided saynig things would get better. Instead, the message that I got from him was "The situation sucks, it'll stay that way, but it's necessary".

Also, I must say I hope it was the last time I heard Bush saying that America will be more agressive in the future... that alone gives me cause for concern.

Kerry focused, and rightly so, on Bush's diversion of resources from Afghanistan and Bin Laden to Iraq and Saddam, and Bush never replied to that. Bush's reply to this was always "But you were for it, and now you accuse me?"

This is the kind of misdirection I was mentioning. Although effective, it seems as if Kerry found a chink in Bush's armour, and it stuck until the end.

Bush dug into Kerry's political past, as was to be expected, and Kerry managed a good rebutal by doing something Bush seems incapable of doing: admiting fault. When Bush said Kerry had been given the same intelligence s he had, Kerry simply said that he had made a wrong decision, and that was better than making a wrong decision and stiking by it.

Particullarly interesting was the talk about North Korea. Kerry seems determined to re-initiate bilateral talks with North Korea, regarding this nations nuclear weapons programs, while Bush seems fixated in his 6 Nation Plan. In this regard, I'd have to say Bush's plan is best. Bilateral talks would, unlike what Kerry assured us, effectivelly rule China out of the equation. This must be the only time in history that you'll read a post by me saying Bush was right regarding foreign policy.

As far as homeland security goes, the message I got from Kerry was, "I'll make it all better, although I don't know how".

In contrast, the message I got from Bush was "Why make it all better, we're already invencible!"

I don't have to say how both sides kinda missed the point here.

As for America's place in the global picture, kudos for Kerry, because Bush bit the dust here.

Kerry supported a re-integration of the US into the plateau of respected nations in the world. Kerry acknowledges that the US has lost its standing as a respected, strong nation, and Kerry seems indeed determined to fix that. All that needs to be seen is how far he'll go.

As for Bush, like I said, he blew it. Bush implied, altohug he didn't actually say it, that the whole structure of the UN is wrong, and doesn't work. That's not a thing a global leader, and proeminent figure in the UN Council should say. His stubborn refusal not to join the International Criminal Court was also ridicullous, as what he's effectivelly saying is "We can judge others, to war if we must, but no one has the right to judge us".

Same for nuclear weapons. The US seems to find itself in the position to say who can and cannot have WMD, yet the US is actually developing new WMD programs, weapons programs which Kerry, in the interest on international stability, said he'd close.

As for the war in Iraq, well, it was exactly what was to be expected. Bush saying it was hard but worth it all the way, while Kerry kept probing for a reason to be there in the first place if the enemy was in Afghanistan. Bush never effectivelly replied to this.

In all, I'd say it was a good debate, really engaging (it had to be, to keep me awake until this hour to write a review on it), and I'd say both candidates did well, although Kerry possibly has more reasons to be pleased with himself than Bush, and I hope this will do some good for his campaign.

This was Francisco Guerra, reporting live for Sciflicks News.
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Old Sep 30, 2004, 11:21 PM   #2
Mattman187
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Re: Presidential Debate

I thought that both parties were incredibly civil towards one another, and both covered their questions graciously.

Kerry won this one, in my opinion, but Bush held his own.
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Old Sep 30, 2004, 11:34 PM   #3
homeworldrelic
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Re: Presidential Debate

I just finished watching the debate close to an hour ago. Bush did seem a bit jittery but his answers were nothing less than perfect.

I personally think Kerry won as well, but not by a landslide.

I got to thinking afterwards though If we could only put the hippie and the war mongering fool together we would have the perfect president.
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Old Sep 30, 2004, 11:56 PM   #4
JACKER
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Re: Presidential Debate

I have really nothing to offer this conversation, just to say, Kerry kicked a little @$$ tonight. He done me good so far.
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Old Oct 1, 2004, 12:10 PM   #5
Iwata
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Re: Presidential Debate

I wouldn't go so far as to say he kicked ass.

I have little more than contempt for Bush, yet I think he got off pretty well. He didn't let himself get cornered, and like I stated earlier, he dodged a few bullets that the unaware viewer might have missed in the first place.

Still, the results so far show Kerry has the lead in the debate polls, by a large margin in some aspects. The two issues in which polls reaveal Bush had the lead was the Iraq situation, and (of all things...) overall credibility.

The rest was all for kerry.

And we must not forget, this topic was Bush's strong point, it was chosen by him, and it was his "territory", and still Kerry got the lead in the debate. If there was a debate Bush had everything going for him was last night's, and overall, Kerry carried it.

If this is any indication, if Bush got defeated in his home turf, then I can only wonder what will happen in the next debates, when we'll go into Kerry's strong arguments on the economy, which Bush never really mastered.

If Bush lost last night on his favourite topic, I can speculate he'll get slaughtered in Kerry's battleground.
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Old Oct 1, 2004, 05:10 PM   #6
Quintessa
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Re: Presidential Debate

For those who have seen the entire debate, Bush seemed to drink out of his glass of water a lot. In fact, I do believe at some point when I got a quick peek at the tv, he was drinking out of his glass with no water left in it.

What's up with that, or is it all my imagination?
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Old Oct 1, 2004, 05:46 PM   #7
Jill
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Re: Presidential Debate

I didn't hear much of the US debates because.... sorry, I'm still in utter shock.

We've just found out we don't need an election here. This is unbelieveable. Basically... this is beyond belief... no other candidates got the requisite number of endorsements to run as opposition. The president only needs to endorse herself to run. So she gets another 7 years in office by default. No elections, none necessary. I take back every thing I said about the US elections. At least they're bothering to go through the motions. Unbelievable. Nobody's even suggested making it easier to run as a presidential candidate so this doesn't happen again. Mind boggling. A 21st century western democracy's president will remain in office purely because nobody else could run, however much they wanted to, or how hard they tried.

Don't get me wrong - she's a good president, and I would have voted for her anyway. But this is a farce...
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Old Oct 1, 2004, 05:49 PM   #8
Quintessa
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Re: Presidential Debate

Quote:
Originally posted by Jill
I didn't hear much of the US debates because.... sorry, I'm still in utter shock.

We've just found out we don't need an election here. This is unbelieveable. Basically... this is beyond belief... no other candidates got the requisite number of endorsements to run as opposition. The president only needs to endorse herself to run. So she gets another 7 years in office by default. No elections, none necessary. I take back every thing I said about the US elections. At least they're bothering to go through the motions. Unbelievable. Nobody's even suggested making it easier to run as a presidential candidate so this doesn't happen again. Mind boggling. A 21st century western democracy's president will remain in office purely because nobody else could run, however much they wanted to, or how hard they tried.

Don't get me wrong - she's a good president, and I would have voted for her anyway. But this is a farce...

Damn!


**** that!


That is total, utter, undeniable ****!


Whoa.

Whoa.

Again for cautionary effect.

Whoa.
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Old Oct 1, 2004, 06:02 PM   #9
Drone
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Re: Presidential Debate

I was going to say something about the debate but


*looks at Iwatas posts*

**** it.



and i spend all morning thinking about a post I could make


you make me angry.
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Old Oct 1, 2004, 06:28 PM   #10
Kieraganion
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Re: Presidential Debate


Quote:
You have made very me angry. Very angry, indeed!
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Old Oct 1, 2004, 07:04 PM   #11
Iwata
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Re: Presidential Debate

Quote:
Originally posted by Drone
I was going to say something about the debate but


*looks at Iwatas posts*

**** it.



and i spend all morning thinking about a post I could make


you make me angry.

Eh?
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Old Oct 2, 2004, 12:40 AM   #12
HighWiredSith
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Re: Presidential Debate

These aren't even real debates - they're just slightly uncontrolled press conferences that the press spins out of all reality. There's not even any subjective way to judge who wins the debate so the press corps spend a lot of meaningless time telling who they thinked "looked" better and bombarding us with poll results.

No new information was presented (unless of course you count Kerry's latest stance on Iraq, the we should have/we should not have approach - but even that's not new), no cross examination, no real sense of competition, which is what debate is, no constructives, no rebuttals. It's like debate-lite.

And as much as the press loves to heap meaning on these debates, they rarely alter the course of an election because the vast majority of the people who watch these debates have long since made up their minds. Those mystical undecideds were probably watching reruns of Seinfeld.
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Old Oct 2, 2004, 02:13 AM   #13
Mattman187
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Re: Presidential Debate

Jill, I'll run for Prez in Ireland, Even though I am a British immigrant living in the good ole' US of A!
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Old Oct 2, 2004, 02:30 PM   #14
Optimus Prime
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Re: Presidential Debate

Besides, read the latest polls, Kerry may have 'won' the debate, but most people would still rather have Bush dealing with the war, terrorists, and most everything else.
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Old Oct 2, 2004, 07:11 PM   #15
Lt_Johnny_Rico
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Re: Presidential Debate

Is it just me, or was there a point during the debate where Bush looked as if he was about to jump Kerry and beat the crap out of him?
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