Time Bandits!!!

[Xorgan]

Originally posted by Ivanhoe

Mislis "Lepa Sela, Lepo gore"?

Tako!

Zasto da ne, ako hoces?

Ker sam samo polslovenec in to je prekomplicirano za mene

Zal,

Xorgan


And there's a practical reason: we wouldn't need a forum for this discussion, as noone else would participate....

[ThinWLady]

Originally posted by Xorgan


First, there's a double negation in your last sentence.
Second, you forgot about all the central and southern europeans here...

Double? But I used comma...

I didn't forgot these parts. I just gave an example. Why not make a discussion of Jan Sverák's Accumulator? That's almost SciFi.

[Splendiferous]

I love this film - Ivanhoe, where's your sense of childish wonder?

I loved the confrontation between the evil guy and all the forces the time bandits could muster.

Of course, it IS a Terry Gilliam film, most of his films are worth watching, even just once.

[Ivan]

The thing is that I never saw this movie as a child , but instead as a grown individual.

At which point I couldn't take this movies seriously. Nor do I think it was inteded to be more then a fantasy bed time story .

[ThinWLady]

Originally posted by Ivanhoe
The thing is that I never saw this movie as a child , but instead as a grown individual.

At which point I couldn't take this movies seriously. Nor do I think it was inteded to be more then a fantasy bed time story .

Did you just say that you don't like fairy tales because they are just fairy tales? I'm not saying that Time Bandits is a great piece of art but it has something same as the Grimm bros' tales. There is many interesting comments (about things generally) in it. I think.

[Ivan]

Personally I like to stick with reality.

Fantasy tales are metaphors and ideas about things the narrator doesn't have a complete understanding of. But instead reinforces its own flawed logic about how things work.

Fairies , sorceries, magic and such are human ideas about possible realities still derived from our own concepts that were created from , or were inspired by, material perceptions.

They are basically distortions of our world. I agree they can sometimes give a clearer insight into some mechanics of our universe. But often they misguide you with idealistic concepts that simply don't work in a world of sound logic.

And if you lust for un logical worlds or a world with non consistent logic then I can understand some of the infatuation for it but still most fairy tales explore different areas and concentrate on moralistic views and sappy relationships between one dimensional characters rather then the physical and logical Background of such theoretical worlds.

[videonaut]

So a story set in space, with aliens, but with no mention of humans would be a fantasy because it is not based on reality? What if reality on other worlds is not the reality we have here, or that our concept of reality is wrong? At one time, earth being flat was considered a reality.

[Ivan]

Fiction that has logically sound or theoretically probable laws, statements or ideas is called Science fiction and the one that does not Fantasy, or fairy tales or what ever you like to call it.

Further on, the basic laws of physics apply everywhere in our universe, on every planet and on every system.

I don’t deny the possibility that other universes exist. Still, imposing that pagan explanations of events, like for ex. that thunder or blasts of wind are acts of angry gods and wicked sorcerers, should be considered a fundamntal law, seems quite unimaginative and retrograde.

[ThinWLady]

Originally posted by Ivanhoe

Fantasy tales are metaphors and ideas about things the narrator doesn't have a complete understanding of. But instead reinforces its own flawed logic about how things work.

Hmmm... Reality... A chair. What comes into your mind about that word is a different picture that I'll get about it. So, it could be said that we don't have a complete understanding of the chair - although it is a part of the reality... At least then it is, if you've seen it and I haven't. No mattar how you would describe it to me, I'll get a different picture. Even then, when we'll both see the chair, it can be seen differently. If I'm half shorter than you and I can't see colours, it's a different object. So, in a way reality is like fantasy and narrator understands just as much as we do.

[Ivan]

I agree with everything you said except for that last part. Your conclusion is wrong.

What you describe is NOT fantasy, everything you said is a logical consequence of fundamental laws in our universe.

Such as your eye disability, or your height, which are a direct result of your DNA structure. Everything in our universe is logical and predictable. So are imperfect human perceptions. But the conclusions humans can derive from such imperfect perceptions can be logical and in synch with the scientifically proven physical laws or they can be irrational speculations and contradictions.

The laws in Fantasy worlds such as the one portrayed in LOTR or Harry Potter are just that.

Also don't forget how magic was used in the past to explain events commonly known and explained today . That is why I say fantasy is often based on retrograde and pagan views.

[ThinWLady]

Originally posted by Ivanhoe

What you describe is NOT fantasy, everything you said is a logical consequence of fundamental laws in our universe.

Yes, I wasn't describing fantasy but I tried to... (Damn, I hate times when I have to use my brains!) You said that the narrator doesn't understand completely things what s/he is speaking about. I tried to [some a verb that I can't recall just now] to you that he or she knows exactly what are those things. But they are like that chair, everybody sees it and them differently and nobody can see the perfect standard of the chair (in reality) or for example the meaning of the white pigeon (in fantasy).

[Ivan]

Ok I seem to have understood what you want to say .

I am sure that to a lot of writers THEIR Fantasy world is perfectly logical . And in their mind and their own “perfect understanding” of it everything is fine.

But often those authors pay little attention to practical solutions and justifications for their world and their "perfectly logical" understanding.

One can say : "In my worlds everything is made of tiny little white pigeons (as opposed to for example sub-quarks) " . What this approach lacks is fundamental essence or building block. What is a white pigeon? A being with complex sub-systems? A synonym for something entirely different?

Any universe, and even a fantasy one is essentially a simulation. And simulation is always deterministic. You have fixed object and rules of interaction, no matter how crazy they may be. You can have pigeons for quarks or chickens for atoms but then it is required that those laws are explained and consistent.

What I dislike about Fantasy is that it borrows one thing in one moment from our world (for example. rules like gravity) and then contradicts in other situations. (for example a sorcerer teleports himself from one place to another using purple haze and silly nursery rhyme.

Now that is Fantasy. That is inconsistent logic. That is why Fiction that has these kinds of elements is called Fantasy. One can say that maybe the purple haze and a nursery rhyme is fundamental law in such universe for spontaneous teleportation, but please does this sound even remotely justified to you?

So I guess that the bottom line is this.

I think that humans shouldn’t create symbolism and connection where they essentially don’t exist. Our life is rich with illusions and I think we should use our intellect to understand what the manifestations around us truly are rather then inventing knights in shiny armors with flying horses and swords that shoot lightning bolts...

We should\t create further illusions and “magical” explanations about things just because they are easier too accept that way.

And Fantasy does just that . I know that “reality” may seem cruel to many but eventually the more you study it and observe it , the more you free yourself from torment of your illusions.

It makes you one step closer to the absolute knowledge of our universe, to which we are all bound .

[ThinWLady]

Hmmm... Yes. It's one way. But like lefty persons, everybody can't think in same way. Which seems to be difficult to one, it's easier to another. Surely it's easy to open a door or cut something or read the clock... But if you're world is "upside down", you can't go with the standard system...

Another thing... Yeah, I think it's a shame that the creators of fanatasy stories don't make everything from the beginning but use reality things in their tales. But if they would do it, it would only be a mess. Nobody wants to read/see a fantasy where is no reality at all. People are simple, they won't buy things that they don't understand.

[Emilie]

Changing the subject a bit here....

I am still not sure what the moral is when the parents were zapped out of existence. What d'y'all think?

[ThinWLady]

Originally posted by Emilie
Changing the subject a bit here....

I am still not sure what the moral is when the parents were zapped out of existence. What d'y'all think?

It's odd why there's so little discussion about that... and still not. I've found that scene very... British. Deep black humour. They didn't care about their son (or they did but in a way that wasn't "right" in his opinion), so he kind of erased them from his mind. I think, it was ok scene, because nobody seemed (and especially the son didn't seem) to do harm to them.