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Pilot's Mess [chit-chat zone]

This is the forum to get to know your fellow pilots and the ONLY place to talk about everything else not really relevant to sci-fi movies, including your personal loves and interests. A true pilot doesn't discuss these issues while on duty.

View Poll Results: What are you? (Insert joke here)
Buddhist 1 2.94%
Hindu 0 0%
(Christian) Roman Catholic 2 5.88%
(Christian) Presbyterian 0 0%
(Christian) Variation 5 14.71%
Jewish 1 2.94%
Muslim 0 0%
Athiest (Militant) 4 11.76%
Athiest (Live and let live) 12 35.29%
Other (RELIGIONS YOU HAVE NAMED AFTER YOURSELF DON'T COUNT!) 9 26.47%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jan 31, 2003, 10:38 AM   #46
Jove
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Re: Caution! Religion!

I'd say you're probably a scientist
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 12:43 PM   #47
Nexus
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Jewish and Christian. Sorta.

Edit:
Actually, I don't belive anything that Christians belive...
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 03:19 PM   #48
JACKER
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Re: Caution! Religion!

There was a menian (or whatever) on a radio show this morning where he talked to the dead. I don't know how the guy does it, but he does it. It's hard to think that there's nothing after death though.

Anyway, religon? Not my thang. I cannot fully deny the existence of God because I'd be no better then those who claim it.
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 05:56 PM   #49
jill_valentine
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Re: Caution! Religion!

I would not deny another person their Religion, but personally I have difficulty believing in a higher power. I believe that Science can explain everything, just that some Science is as yet beyond us. I believe in no Paranormal, just more of Normal than we're used to.

In answer to an earlier question, yes, the thought of certain oblivion does comfort me. Somehow I have difficulty stomaching someone elses judgement, even if they are God, Elvis or even Keanu Reeves.

Actually, Keanu Reeves can do whatever he likes with me
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 07:49 PM   #50
Gareth
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by jill_valentine
I believe that Science can explain everything, just that some Science is as yet beyond us.

You know, I've often thought that if the religious folks and the scientific folks would just get together, we'd have a lot more answers than we do right now. Isn't it strange that (generally speaking) they are so often at odds with each other.

Example: "If you're Christian, how can you say you believe in the theory of evolution?" I get that one a lot. And I have to explain that I don't believe in theory of evolution, I believe in the Theory of Adaptation. MY theory. Part evolution; part creation.

For example, Genetics has revealed what's become known as the "Master Gene", but no one knows just how it works. It is a FACT that species are altered over time. (Aside: I believe that Man and the Apes are actually separate branches of the tree, otherwise there wouldn't still be a "missing link". The DNA happens to be pretty close, but distinct from way, way back. I don't believe we'll ever see it merging along the backward line, but I wouldn't discount the idea that it just might!)

I got thinking about that and realized -Hey!- the Great Spirit must have physical access to His creation or species wouldn't change over time to adapt to new environments. So, He must have a key. I imagine Him thinking (and hope He doesn't consider it sacreligious), "Oooo. THIS little fella won't survive if I don't give him the means to interact in this environment, so I'll just tweak the South American version of the racoon a little and give him a prehensile tail. Lots of trees there; he'll fare better that way." Turn the key. Simple, huh?

So many religious people believe that Creation stopped somewhere along the line, and of course, they're entitled to. (Scientists appear to be more open-minded about faith, than the religious are about science, I must say.)

But look at the evidence. Creation never stopped. It's happening right now; all around us. The birth of a star, the collision of galaxies - all giving rise to more Creation. I believe that (scientific) reality is actually on auto-pilot, following the physical, mathematical rules that God laid out for it and that He intervenes and adjusts the Creation whenever the need arises.

Of course, I could be wrong. But that's just my two cents.

Personally, there is too much wonder and purpose and beauty and design for me NOT to believe that there is a God. (What a puny word for Him.) I do understand the idea many have that maybe there's not. (I passed through the "There is no God" phase in my early twenties.)

Experience has so much to do with our beliefs, as you so eloquently pointed out in your prior post. If I hadn't experienced the presence of God, I might not believe in Him either. Like everything else, I guess, we have to be open to the idea first. After all, there must be some reason we're so damn curious about everything.
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 08:00 PM   #51
SF_not_Sci-Fi
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by floyd
I've never heard of a militant athiest. I've heard of militant christians though, yet there are none on the poll
No Floyd, they like to be called 'evangelical'.




It is my personal beleif that if you don't belive in the one true God and his two roomates, you will forever burn in the lake of fire as the one true god's hairy hippie-looking roomate (who is also the one true god) and I laugh at you from a fluffy cloud. The hippie loves everybody though.



sorry


I'm of the 'live and let live' variaty, but I like to poke fun at other people's beleif structure anyway.
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Old Jan 31, 2003, 09:31 PM   #52
The one......
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Re: Caution! Religion!

What always got me was that in the RC religion, that 'God' was so judgemental, with the hell and the such.

Why bother with us then? We such little a-holes, why create us?Just why?

I do find it hard to say that I believe in God (in the spiritual sense) as the word 'God' has an inborn sadistic meaning inbred into me from the schools I attended, and churches that I was dragged to.

But in a sense I do. Even as an atheist, I belived in a higher being, but something other than the crap that was spouted out to me.

I am still struggling with the idea of god, but purely because of the utter bullsh!t that was thrown at me in my lifetime.

I'm still trying to get round those fucked up images that have bestowed me, and create the one that I feel is best in my world to deal with. But whatever, I feel extremely strongly that there is certainly life after death...
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Old Feb 1, 2003, 06:36 AM   #53
HighWiredSith
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Re: Caution! Religion!

The universe is dying, falling apart. Nothing new is being created and there is no evidence to show there is. The colliding galaxies, imploding stars...all de-struction. Mankind is becoming weaker, duller, less intelligent, more destructive, less civilized with each passing age. The speed of light is actually slowing down, our sun is dying as is our planet. The second law of thermodynamics in action; a grand visual aide, just open your eyes! Yet there is hope after all...

And evolution...nonesense. It is the evolutionist who has the burden of proof and the evolutionist has yet produce one shred of it outside of a bunch of simplified observations (like hey, apes to kind of look like people) and major stretches in logic and reason. Their theories change daily. How many explanations of the dinosaurs have we now had just in my lifetime alone? A dozen? Now they all became birds. What happened to the asteroid that killed them all or the ice age before that? But that is a different thread alltogether. Like the coffee talk lady, there you go, discuss...

Science can't answer the questions like why we are here, why we fear death so much, why we long for the eternal when there is abosolutely not one shred of scientific proof that anything in this world is eternal, why men spend their entire lives dreaming about the myth of Utopia when it is clear that Utopia is an absolute impossibility and this fact has been proven over and over again. Thomas Aquinas, Plato, Aristotle, Rene Descartes, these men knew that something explained the passion bred into every human heart that drove men to some kind of religious experience. You can deny God all you want, that is your choice and it is this free will that gives salvation its value. But God puts in every man the desire to seek Him out. This coversation affirms this. Every single one of you develop and struggle with your own ideas of creation, life, death, and what lay beyond. I've yet to meet a single person who has never, at some point, cared about such things. They may oppress or deny such thoughts and longing, but they are there, they are always there. Does your explanation of God comfort you when you are alone with your thoughts, when you think about death, when a loved one dies, when you feel guilt over something you did that you knew was wrong but did it anyway, when, as some of you here have experienced, you heard a car bomb explode or mortar fire rip your town apart, when you watched the World Trade Center burn and wondered if you were next? Did you cuddle up to your scientific theories and find comfort in the fact that we are all evolved slime anyway so what does any of it matter???
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Old Feb 1, 2003, 08:40 AM   #54
SF_not_Sci-Fi
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
Did you cuddle up to your scientific theories and find comfort in the fact that we are all evolved slime anyway so what does any of it matter???
No, I waited for Santa Claus to come back and make it all better. What I thought as I smelled the smoke was 'must be some God-fearing folk on a night on the town'. I was right too. And your God was on their side after all. didn't get 'the jew call' though.

And does it comfort you more to belive that you are a handfull of dirt animated by a cruel monster who would rather burn a town for jollies then do anything constructive, a mischeivous child who cultivates an ant farm only to flood it and watch the ants die in the hope that some would be stupid enough to build him a temple and that perhaps some of the more devious ants would get fat from the grains of suger brought there to honor Him?

And the fact that science (not scientists) is never sure of itself shows that the search for knoledge continues. The fact that your old myths remain static and grounded in a disproven model of the universe (no matter how much 'interpretation' you stuff in there) only shows how laughable it all is. But you are entitiled to your silly illusions as I am entitled to mine, as long as they don't hurt anybody in this lifetime.

Last edited by SF_not_Sci-Fi : Feb 1, 2003 at 08:51 AM.
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Old Feb 1, 2003, 09:18 AM   #55
The one......
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Well, it's not the dying that counts; it's how we live that matters.

My anaology of life is practicing for a stage play, or a computer game.

You have the chance to put in great effort for the final showdown, and it's up to you to go out and make that part yours.

You can explore the part fully, learn the lines and understand them, rather than just read them and do as you are told.

Inevitably though the play will end, or the game will finish-either through technical faults,own mistakes or by completing it.




Sorry for that bit of digression there.
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Old Feb 1, 2003, 09:22 AM   #56
Autechre
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Re: Caution! Religion!

The only thing that seems to make any sense [to me] is err..athiesm, the closest thing anyway. Although its progressed, it dosn't matter. Im interested in the existentialists, like Camus and Sartre..their main philosophy is basically this:..'no matter how right you think you are, you'll always be wrong'...and thats it.

I think it also depends on your mood if you choose to care that day,.. ive cared enough to pontificate my contribution to this useless babble.
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Old Feb 1, 2003, 06:36 PM   #57
jill_valentine
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Sith, I believe that on a grander scale, no, nothing that I do will really matter. But on a personal level, it does. I do know the difference between right and wrong and I sleep at night depending on whether or not I tried hard enough to live by that. Just because I do not have a god does not make me some soulless monster living in a shell. If I were to attack your belief system like that you would tear me to shreds and rightly so. How can you dump on science from such a height when it has done so much? It has the questions and the answers, if we can only find them. Just because scientists can be wrong does not make every single scientific arguement invalid. Scientists too are human. The need for a utopia, a better place, is a natural want for more comfort. its what drives us to improve things. We may never achieve a perfect world, but that does not excuse us from striving towards it. Human beings are naturally curious, it comes with self awareness. That is not proof in itself of God. On several occasions you have attacked my arguements on the basis that they were purely emotional, or not logical. The animosity behind your post makes it seem as though you take athiesm as a personal insult. How dare you rant on like that, like athiests are guiltless machines because we look at the world differently to you. I mourn the dead, I feel guilt, I try to do right by others, and savage violence appalls me. The difference is, I don't rely on something else to comfort me, not a god, and not some bedtime story I like to tell myself, scientific or otherwise.
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Old Feb 3, 2003, 01:30 AM   #58
Ivan
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Yes my beliefs comfort me. When you realize the true nature of our universe you see that everything is just a bunch of primary particle-waves swirling around. And nothing is actually important since it is all a prefabricated simulation. Emotions are just a way for someone to deal with it. But eventually everyone will face the truth.

Even your childís death, even your death is just a circulation of matter. A child canít cry-away the facts of life. But it can cry.
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Old Feb 3, 2003, 03:13 AM   #59
ThinWLady
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Re: Caution! Religion!

Sith dear, why do you sound so pessimistic? We're alive and that's all that matters.
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Old Feb 5, 2003, 07:54 AM   #60
HighWiredSith
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Re: Caution! Religion!

What on earth would give you the idea that I am a pessimist? On the contrary, I find great hope in the scientific truths of this world. Our world is dying, we are dying, yet it fills me with hope and wonder and greatly affirms what I believe.

And, Jill my dear, ranting? Animosity? All I have done is ask questions (albiet a bit on the loaded side) and I would humbly suggest that you are the one who percieves animosity. As is often when I ask such things, I am accused of attacking belief systems, being pessimistic and closed minded, ranting, childish (see SF's reply), etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. Athiests don't make me jump on the table and cry "eek" nor do they intimidate or insult me. I have several very good friends who claim to be athiests (or some form of agnostic) and I have no more illusions about changing their belief systems then they do about changing mine. So instead of attacking me (very poor debatesmanship - personal attacks appear desparate), why not attack the issue at hand as I have stated it. How can we explain this ingrained human need to believe in the eternal, to find comfort in our own mortality, to grasp at what you call illusions and delusions? And again, the point is not how you answer the questions on this board nor is it what I think the answers are. As I have said, I make no presumptions. The real answers, the ones that matter anyway, are the ones you answer sincerely in your own heart and mind. So it does not matter what I say, what you say, what I think you might say, or what you think I think you might say. My faith is a wonderful thing. It gives me hope in the face of hopelesness, contentment and peace in a world that offers little of either. If your beliefs do the same, then there you go. As a wise man once said, it doesn't matter what you believe in nearly as much as it does to believe in something.

And I do apologize if I have offended you or have come across as insensitive. Such was not at all my intention. But allow me to refer to your topic Caution...religion. I assumed the caution meant beware- you might be offended. Still, there is no excuse for insensitivity and again, I apologize.

(PS - I made a couple of content and spelling correction edits)

Last edited by HighWiredSith : Feb 5, 2003 at 11:54 AM.
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