Go Back   Home > SciFlicks SQUAD! Forums > Sci-Fi Nation > Pilot's Mess [chit-chat zone]

Welcome to the SciFlicks SQUAD! Forums.

You are currently viewing our community boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free and open-minded sci-fi community you will be able to start and reply to forum discussions, write movie reviews, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or with your account please contact support here.

Pilot's Mess [chit-chat zone]

This is the forum to get to know your fellow pilots and the ONLY place to talk about everything else not really relevant to sci-fi movies, including your personal loves and interests. A true pilot doesn't discuss these issues while on duty.

View Poll Results: What are you? (Insert joke here)
Buddhist 1 2.94%
Hindu 0 0%
(Christian) Roman Catholic 2 5.88%
(Christian) Presbyterian 0 0%
(Christian) Variation 5 14.71%
Jewish 1 2.94%
Muslim 0 0%
Athiest (Militant) 4 11.76%
Athiest (Live and let live) 12 35.29%
Other (RELIGIONS YOU HAVE NAMED AFTER YOURSELF DON'T COUNT!) 9 26.47%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 21, 2003, 02:18 PM   #76
HighWiredSith
More Than Just Okay
HighWiredSith's Avatar
3,854 flights since Jul 2001
Location: The Uplift Mojo Party
Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by SF_not_Sci-Fi
We have adjusted to our environment. it is what we do
We have altered our environment. This is also what we do. An aincient would also not hbe able to survive in today's world. Does this make him inferior? No, only out of place.

As for you relegion: it doesn't work. Medicine does. Its just that simple. Science, when applied to the real world resonates. Relegion only betreys itself as nonsense.

Adjust? We don't adjust, we adjust the environment to fit our wants and occassionaly our needs. Or better yet, we let others do it for us. It's got nothing to do with environment anyway. It's about the basic ability to understand, improvise, and adapt. 99% of us would think our world fell apart if we lost our job or our house burned down or the transmission went out on our car. It breaks, we buy another one.

And how can you possibly compare religion and medicine? And medicine does what? For every disease we supposedly cure we create a dozen more, many times as lethal as the one we irradicated. We've pushed the life span up a dozen years, the infant mortality rate down a few, but would you consider that a monumental achivement? So we live a few years longer now and spend more time sucking resources away from others and die from things that a hundred years ago we would have never known we had. This sounds very negative and I don't deny that we live in very comfortable times thanks to the techniclogical advances of our age. But this technology is a house built on sand and it would shock the average person to know just how little it would take to bring it all crashing down around us. Then where would we be? Most of us would be dead.

And science, it changes more often than religion. The earth shattering science of today will be the crackpot ideas of tomorrow. The goal of science, at one time, was to move toward a greater understanding of our world, how it works, what its composed of. In our day, however, science has become a job of smoke and mirrors, a race to see who can invent the most outrageous and unprovable theory. Scientists of our day have become fiction writers, inventing wild ideas about things that simply cannot be explained. And the new law of science, if you can't prove it wrong, then it must be right. You can't prove a giant bunny didn't excrete our sun, so there you go, it must be right. Theories are thrown around like fact with no more proof to them than your most basic of religious principles. Yet in religion, this is not a contradiction, it's the basic principle of faith. Today's science requires just as much faith, probably more, and that, no matter how you slice it, it contradictory and ironic.
HighWiredSith is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 21, 2003, 10:20 PM   #77
JACKER
The Paradisal Man
JACKER's Avatar
1,359 flights since Dec 2001
Location: Either in the gutter or the clouds
Re: Caution! Religion!

You're all wrong. And I'm certainly contradictory and not right.

I have just decided that debates are meaningless for so many reasons. One reason being that you all are hellbent on showing the previous poster up and appearing more knowledgable and wise and winning this debate, then finding the truth.

*scratches chin* Human, all too human.
JACKER is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 21, 2003, 11:18 PM   #78
pinky
Recruit Pilot
pinky's Avatar
7 flights since May 2003
Location: CA
Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by JACKER
You're all wrong. And I'm certainly contradictory and not right.

I have just decided that debates are meaningless for so many reasons. One reason being that you all are hellbent on showing the previous poster up and appearing more knowledgable and wise and winning this debate, then finding the truth.

*scratches chin* Human, all too human.

Well, first off I'd like to address this. Debates are NOT about showing who is more knowledgable. They are more of an exchange of knowledge of two people (or more) who disagree on some issue. Would you rather be an ignorant average American statistic who sits on his ass all day watching MTV and eating junk food and doing whatever the government wants you to do? Wouldn't you the be the "human". If you would rather be this, then I'm not sure why you are posting here....

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith

Adjust? We don't adjust, we adjust the environment to fit our wants and occassionaly our needs. Or better yet, we let others do it for us.

I'm pretty sure that what SF_not_SciFi said is that we alter our environment and, naturally we will adjust to the new environment that we altered. Your really just restated this and then added that we let others do it for us. Well, maybe if you like to sit back and watch things happen. But then again, it is not individuals who adjust the environment, it is our species as a whole.

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
99% of us would think our world fell apart if we lost our job or our house burned down or the transmission went out on our car. It breaks, we buy another one.

Maybe this would hold true to those raised purely in a capitalistic society (which, unfortunatley, is nearly inevetable in this day and age). Even some of those people that were raised in a capitalistic society do not necessarily have to rely on capitalism to survive.

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
For every disease we supposedly cure we create a dozen more, many times as lethal as the one we irradicated. We've pushed the life span up a dozen years, the infant mortality rate down a few, but would you consider that a monumental achivement? So we live a few years longer now and spend more time sucking resources away from others and die from things that a hundred years ago we would have never known we had. This sounds very negative and I don't deny that we live in very comfortable times thanks to the techniclogical advances of our age. But this technology is a house built on sand and it would shock the average person to know just how little it would take to bring it all crashing down around us. Then where would we be? Most of us would be dead.

YES. EXCELLENT POINT. I whole heartedly agree with you here. I follow Darwin's beliefs closely and can't agree more that new medicines and vaccinations are f*cking things up. Diseases were here for a reason: to control our population (no, I do not believe god created them ). New medicines really are screwing things up. Also, medical technology. If a premature or retarded baby is born, KILL IT. This may sound brutal to many, but do you really think that they would survive by themselves when they are grown up? No, they are useless. Many just merely exist, with no purpose but to sit there and eat and waste money (things about "All the World's a Stage speech in As You Like It).

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
The earth shattering science of today will be the crackpot ideas of tomorrow. The goal of science, at one time, was to move toward a greater understanding of our world, how it works, what its composed of. In our day, however, science has become a job of smoke and mirrors, a race to see who can invent the most outrageous and unprovable theory. Scientists of our day have become fiction writers, inventing wild ideas about things that simply cannot be explained. Theories are thrown around like fact with no more proof to them than your most basic of religious principles. Yet in religion, this is not a contradiction, it's the basic principle of faith. Today's science requires just as much faith, probably more, and that, no matter how you slice it, it contradictory and ironic.

Where did you learn that science today is not real, not true? We continue to acquire knowledge about our surroundings, and I for one only believe in the things that can be proven, unlike religion. As for the origin of the sun or similar matters that we can only suggest theories about, the scientific theories available are just as unproven as your creationism religious beliefs. But, rather than just say "Oh, some all powerful being created everything in a few days" scientists actually accumulated knowledge by observing outer space and seeing patterns. From these observations, they made an educated guess and came up withe the theory of the Big Bang. You say that this educated guess takes more faith to believe in than your own creationism beliefs? They may be just as much unproven, but sertainly, one seems more valid than the other....

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
And the new law of science, if you can't prove it wrong, then it must be right. You can't prove a giant bunny didn't excrete our sun, so there you go, it must be right.

Hmm, but aren't your beliefs just as unproven and even rediculous sounding if you were not used to them growing up? If you lived in a place where no one had even thought of creationism and any form of religion did not exist, then these the bunny idea and god would seem just as stupid as one another. I see them this way as well.
pinky is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 21, 2003, 11:19 PM   #79
floyd
Libertarian
floyd's Avatar
1,141 flights since Feb 2002
Location: Jesus's Heart
Re: Caution! Religion!

Can I indirectly blame god for all the stupid sh*it some of his closest followers say? --
floyd is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 21, 2003, 11:32 PM   #80
pinky
Recruit Pilot
pinky's Avatar
7 flights since May 2003
Location: CA
Re: Caution! Religion!

Well, I don't think so. Id they do what the church tells them to do, and if they believe in what the chirch tells them to believe in, wouldn't it be the church's fault?
pinky is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 21, 2003, 11:39 PM   #81
floyd
Libertarian
floyd's Avatar
1,141 flights since Feb 2002
Location: Jesus's Heart
Re: Caution! Religion!

what?


look, what exactly is the difference between the church telling people what to do, and god telling people what to do? Is the church not a medium between (if I've read right) the people and god?
floyd is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 21, 2003, 11:47 PM   #82
pinky
Recruit Pilot
pinky's Avatar
7 flights since May 2003
Location: CA
Re: Caution! Religion!

Wweellll, you see for me, I do not believe in god. So natuarlly I can say that all corruptness and stupidity from religion comes from the church. See where I'm coming from?
pinky is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 22, 2003, 12:32 AM   #83
floyd
Libertarian
floyd's Avatar
1,141 flights since Feb 2002
Location: Jesus's Heart
Re: Caution! Religion!

that one comment has been stretched out too far.
floyd is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 22, 2003, 04:03 AM   #84
Jove
Sector Marshall
Jove's Avatar
743 flights since Nov 2002
Location: In front of my computer.
Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
It's about the basic ability to understand, improvise, and adapt. 99% of us would think our world fell apart if we lost our job or our house burned down or the transmission went out on our car. It breaks, we buy another one.

Please, HWS, you have no evidence of prior societies' ability to understand, improvise and adapt to be able to say that our society is worse. If you do, where is it?

And where is the evidence to support your "fact" that man was more intelligent 2000 years ago? Or do you expect us to believe this the way you claim that we all merely believe what people tell us? Or are you merely reporting what you have been told?

I agree with you, however, about medicine, so I'm not going to add to that.


Quote:
The goal of science, at one time, was to move toward a greater understanding of our world, how it works, what its composed of. In our day, however, science has become a job of smoke and mirrors, a race to see who can invent the most outrageous and unprovable theory.

And yet we now have the most accurate understanding of our planet, our world, our solar system, our galaxy and our universe than we have ever had. We can look back further in time than at any point in history.

Quote:
Theories are thrown around like fact with no more proof to them than your most basic of religious principles. Yet in religion, this is not a contradiction, it's the basic principle of faith. Today's science requires just as much faith, probably more, and that, no matter how you slice it, it contradictory and ironic.

The fundamental difference between the two is that Scientific theories are thrown up to be proven right or wrong. There is no point in a theory if it is not shown to be either correct or not.
Religious faith, on the other hand, is an unprovable matter. It can never be put on the test-bed and proven one way ot the other. Religion relies on their eternally unprovable claims to supply the mysticism and power of their Religion.
Jove is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 22, 2003, 07:59 AM   #85
HighWiredSith
More Than Just Okay
HighWiredSith's Avatar
3,854 flights since Jul 2001
Location: The Uplift Mojo Party
Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by Jove


Please, HWS, you have no evidence of prior societies' ability to understand, improvise and adapt to be able to say that our society is worse. If you do, where is it?

And where is the evidence to support your "fact" that man was more intelligent 2000 years ago? Or do you expect us to believe this the way you claim that we all merely believe what people tell us? Or are you merely reporting what you have been told?

I agree with you, however, about medicine, so I'm not going to add to that.

Okay, where do I start? How about the great pyramids? The great wall of China perhaps? The ancient Inca's? Or how about that silly show that comes on the Discovery Channel (or PBS) where modern engineers try to figure out how to accomplish the most basic of ancient world engineering without their crutches, i.e. computer models, heavy machinery, laser guided tools, etc.




Quote:
And yet we now have the most accurate understanding of our planet, our world, our solar system, our galaxy and our universe than we have ever had. We can look back further in time than at any point in history.



Do we really? You miss the entire point. You, my friend, don't know anything. You know what you were told in school or what you read in a science book or saw on television. My point is this, you trust the science you have been given by others, you trust it's true and valid and not once have you ever tested these theories on your own. And I am not in any way stating that everything we know from science is wrong, but I am suggesting that it could be and even further some of it is.



Quote:
The fundamental difference between the two is that Scientific theories are thrown up to be proven right or wrong. There is no point in a theory if it is not shown to be either correct or not.
Religious faith, on the other hand, is an unprovable matter. It can never be put on the test-bed and proven one way ot the other. Religion relies on their eternally unprovable claims to supply the mysticism and power of their Religion.

Again, you miss my point. One of the most basic rules of science is that nothing is absolute unless it can be proven to be true every time it's tested, the first time or the millionth time. The first time the theory is contradicted or shown to be invalid, it should be discarded. But today's science consists of theories that have never once been proven but stand on the basic principle that in generalistic terms they can't be disproven and you have a handful of theories that scientists so desperately cling to that they ignore any and all contradictory evidence.

And this business of trying to say Religion is false because some of its tenent cannot be proven is preposterous. Most religion requires you to believe in something despite the lack of imperical evidence to prove it. What faith is there in a God you can see, touch, put your hands on? These are very basic and very desperate attempts to mold belief and faith into the same circumstance as science and it simply doesn't work. You want talk about faith or religion, let us talk about faith or religion. You want to talk about science, let's do. By mixing the two you commit fallacy, changning the argument, attacking the new argument. You state religion is invalid because it stands entirely on faith and not proof or evidence. I suggest that modern science requires the same kind of faith and my point is that it should not, because it's science.

Last edited by HighWiredSith : May 22, 2003 at 08:53 AM.
HighWiredSith is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 22, 2003, 08:10 AM   #86
HighWiredSith
More Than Just Okay
HighWiredSith's Avatar
3,854 flights since Jul 2001
Location: The Uplift Mojo Party
Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by pinky
Hmm, but aren't your beliefs just as unproven and even rediculous sounding if you were not used to them growing up? If you lived in a place where no one had even thought of creationism and any form of religion did not exist, then these the bunny idea and god would seem just as stupid as one another. I see them this way as well.

I feel I've made this point, but I will make it again. This is a religion thread, but aren't we talking about science? Religion, at least my religion, not only asks belief based totally on faith but requires it. Therefore, to argue that what I believe is invalid because it can't be proven contradicts the very idea of what I believe to begin with.

Science, on the other hand, asks the opposite. It requires that everything be proven to be true, not just once, but time and time again. The history of science has been filled with insane ideas, 99% of which have been discarded by research and discover of the truth. Today is no different, yet what is different, or what appears to be different, is that theories, even the most outlandish of theories, are given absolute credibility irregardless of their ability to stand the scrutiny of the scientific method. We put faith in the grand scientists of our day and take what they tell us as truth. I wonder why and I can't help but think it's because we no longer have the ability to scrutinize such things for ourselves. Perhaps technology has dumbed us down. As I have stated, today's science is built on hundreds of years of knowledge, collected, and built upon. It's a wonderful and completely human characteristic, the idea of not having the reinvent the wheel. But it is also a crutch and a liability.
HighWiredSith is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 22, 2003, 09:02 AM   #87
ThinWLady
Mrs. Tony Harrison
ThinWLady's Avatar
1,295 flights since Feb 2002
Location: Swinging Organ
Re: Caution! Religion!

In a way we can't trust into science just like we can't trust into religion too. Science is filled with evidences but these things don't prove much when somebody discovers that some of scientical laws are wrong. Until then it's relieving to believe into science.
ThinWLady is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 22, 2003, 10:28 AM   #88
pinky
Recruit Pilot
pinky's Avatar
7 flights since May 2003
Location: CA
Re: Caution! Religion!

[quote]Originally posted by HighWiredSith
You, my friend, don't know anything. You know what you were told in school or what you read in a science book or saw on television. My point is this, you trust the science you have been given by others, you trust it's true and valid and not once have you ever tested these theories on your own. And I am not in any way stating that everything we know from science is wrong, but I am suggesting that it could be and even further some of it is. [/QUOUTE]
And you, my friend, know what you were told by the church, something that has been corrupted by money from the very beginning of time. The very church who takes people's money for their own uses, the very church who claims that they can teach you the real truth, the very church that will let you into heaven... for a price.
Now tell me, if you truest what these people say, how is this more valid than the answers science has provided and PROVEN. Is your source really more valid?
pinky is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 22, 2003, 10:53 AM   #89
HighWiredSith
More Than Just Okay
HighWiredSith's Avatar
3,854 flights since Jul 2001
Location: The Uplift Mojo Party
Re: Caution! Religion!

[quote]Originally posted by pinky
Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
You, my friend, don't know anything. You know what you were told in school or what you read in a science book or saw on television. My point is this, you trust the science you have been given by others, you trust it's true and valid and not once have you ever tested these theories on your own. And I am not in any way stating that everything we know from science is wrong, but I am suggesting that it could be and even further some of it is. [/QUOUTE]
And you, my friend, know what you were told by the church, something that has been corrupted by money from the very beginning of time. The very church who takes people's money for their own uses, the very church who claims that they can teach you the real truth, the very church that will let you into heaven... for a price.
Now tell me, if you truest what these people say, how is this more valid than the answers science has provided and PROVEN. Is your source really more valid?


First of all, you confuse faith with religion and religion with "church." You also make an entire host of generalizations and cliche'd ideas about something, as far as my own personal beliefs are concerned, you know absolutely nothing about. Very amateurish.

You also continue to deny, avoid, or simply fail to grasp the basic and essential issue here and that is the fact that science should not require faith while religion not only requires it but demands it. Theories, by their very definition are UNPROVEN. If they were proven, they would be laws. My point, again , is that theories in our day are presented and believed like scientific law, without proof, without testing and that, my friend, takes faith. You have yet to make a single argument to prove to me that it does not.
HighWiredSith is offline Reply With Quote
Old May 22, 2003, 10:59 AM   #90
Jove
Sector Marshall
Jove's Avatar
743 flights since Nov 2002
Location: In front of my computer.
Re: Caution! Religion!

Quote:
Originally posted by HighWiredSith
And this business of trying to say Religion is false because some of its tenent cannot be proven is preposterous. Most religion requires you to believe in something despite the lack of imperical evidence to prove it. What faith is there in a God you can see, touch, put your hands on?

Who has said that Religion is false because some of its tenents cannot be proven?
I am merely saying that Religion relies on the unprovable. This doesn't make the beliefs wrong, or right. Belief in the unproven is one definition of FAITH.


Quote:
You want talk about faith or religion, let us talk about faith or religion. You want to talk about science, let's do. By mixing the two you commit fallacy, changning the argument, attacking the new argument.

While I would love to argue logical fallacies with you, HWS, it is something I have come to accept on forums - topics mix and merge within threads.

But Religion and Science are, in my opinion, linked through the concept of theory. Religious beliefs are theory - they are merely suggestions of how things are. This is surely what scientific theories also are.



Quote:
You state religion is invalid because it stands entirely on faith and not proof or evidence. I suggest that modern science requires the same kind of faith and my point is that it should not, because it's science.

Okay - again, I hope this isn't levelled at me 'cos I have never and will never say that religion is invalid - for any reason.
To say that is invalid for that reason is to say that faith is invalid - and yet we place trust / faith in almost everything we do, to some degree or other.

But I have been taught many "unproven" things at school - religion being just one. Why is it that I have great difficulty in having faith in religious beliefs (or at least the ones I have been taught) and not in some others?
Jove is offline Reply With Quote
Reply

← Previous Thread | Next Thread → Home > SciFlicks SQUAD! Forums > Sci-Fi Nation > Pilot's Mess [chit-chat zone]

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Religion and idiots
I had a convorsation today with this little Southern Babtist christian kid in school. And he informed me that Jews, Muslims, Hindu's, Mormons, And...
115
replies
Quotes, I have so far.
I really haven't dome much... And a this is mostly for my own use as a religious pondering person. I really enjoy the debate of ethics. This is what...
18
replies
Religion, what are you?
I am a cat
20
replies
Religion,
I think it's important that we all Know what Religion other pilot's follow. This is a mult-faith site and we all have predjudices against certain...
11
replies
Religion of Peace?
What do you guys think about Islam? Is it a religion of peace. Can it be when it's basic tenent require it's followers to dismember and destroy...
25
replies
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
 

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:03 PM.
SciFlicks cannot be held liable for the opinions expressed in these public forums.
SciFlicks Copyright 1998-2011, Popcorn Studios.
vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.